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Stronghold 2: Game Help & Strategy
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Stronghold 2 » Forums » Stronghold 2: Game Help & Strategy » New honor system & crime
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Topic Subject:New honor system & crime
alpha Beta
Archer
posted 10-31-05 16:40 EST (US)         
If anyone has noticed, the honor generated by crime devices has changed. It's very reduced, and I haven't been able to determine exactly what's happening.

Do they all generate 1 honor point every once in a while? What about capital puinishment, etc.?

Merepatra - your very nicely done crime explanation here is now outdated.

AuthorReplies:
Rank Outsider
Archer
posted 10-31-05 17:07 EST (US)     1 / 19       
They provide a constant honour bonus like statues, I don't think you get an honour bonus each time you rehabilitate a criminal like before.

Also I think the milder the punishment equipment, the more often you get the honour bonus.

[This message has been edited by Rank Outsider (edited 10-31-2005 @ 05:09 PM).]

Kester
Seraph Emeritus
posted 10-31-05 20:25 EST (US)     2 / 19       

Quote:

Merepatra - your very nicely done crime explanation here is now outdated.

It will be updated soon


.--.- Kester -.--.
-.--.- deviations .--. flickr .--. gamertag -.--.-
.--.- if (Kester.says("Zen! Get online")) { zen.status("online") } -.--.
Redeye CoV
Archer
posted 11-01-05 08:17 EST (US)     3 / 19       
I thought I read you now get the torture device honor bonus once a month? If that is the case, you probably get more or less the same amount of honor, if it is less each tick, but happens more often. Not sure on all that though. I always hang my criminals. :-)

When cities burn, and armies turn and flee in dissaray
Cowards will cry "Tis' best to fly! and fight another day!"
But warriors know it in their marrow, as they die and fall
Tis' better to have fought and lost, than never have fought at all.
alpha Beta
Archer
posted 11-01-05 09:14 EST (US)     4 / 19       
Well, let's take the wheel for example. I used this all the time before 1.3 since it was a good balance of rehab time and honor bonus (plus the resources were reasonable as well).

Every time a criminal was rehabilitated with the wheel you received +6 honor. Given how often crime happens in SH2, this turned out to be a huge bonus. I liked the idea that there was more incentive to use less-harsh punishments, but thought the bonus was a little excessive. Now, with 1.3, I only see a +1 bonus happen every once in a while. It doesn't seem to correlate with a punishment either.

I haven't experimented much myself, but are the current bonuses different for each punishment type? Are they monthly? I was trying to see what others have observed, so we can get statistics on them. This way we can come up with the benefits and drawbacks of each like before.

Kester
Seraph Emeritus
posted 11-03-05 00:30 EST (US)     5 / 19       
I did some testing last night (and some updating of the game info pages), and all of the torture devices that I've tried so far give 1 honour bonus each month. I haven't tried the gallows yet to see whether it now gives honour.

.--.- Kester -.--.
-.--.- deviations .--. flickr .--. gamertag -.--.-
.--.- if (Kester.says("Zen! Get online")) { zen.status("online") } -.--.
Redeye CoV
Archer
posted 11-03-05 08:22 EST (US)     6 / 19       
Gallows gives 1 honor each month, that is usually what I use all the time, so I thought the 1 honor was gallows specific.

Now the question, do multiple divices give more honor?

IE if I have a donkey mask, and the stocks, do I get 2 honor every month?


When cities burn, and armies turn and flee in dissaray
Cowards will cry "Tis' best to fly! and fight another day!"
But warriors know it in their marrow, as they die and fall
Tis' better to have fought and lost, than never have fought at all.
Kester
Seraph Emeritus
posted 11-03-05 10:03 EST (US)     7 / 19       
Only if they're both in use at the same time. It's still one each.

.--.- Kester -.--.
-.--.- deviations .--. flickr .--. gamertag -.--.-
.--.- if (Kester.says("Zen! Get online")) { zen.status("online") } -.--.
Redeye CoV
Archer
posted 11-03-05 11:26 EST (US)     8 / 19       
Hmm, so other than the initial cost, there doesn't seem to be a reason to go with the less harsh punishments. Personally I like the flogging post, but that has just recently become my new personal favorite. :-)

When cities burn, and armies turn and flee in dissaray
Cowards will cry "Tis' best to fly! and fight another day!"
But warriors know it in their marrow, as they die and fall
Tis' better to have fought and lost, than never have fought at all.
Sparrow
Archer
posted 11-03-05 22:49 EST (US)     9 / 19       
After doing a little fooling around with it, here is what I have observed regarding torture times and honor gained in patch 1.3.1. There may be other changes yet to be discovered. I did notice on the test map I was using that criminals no longer seemed to go to a working inn to strap on their bag and begin to sneak toward the granary. They seemed to always return to the hovels, irregardless of the presence of the inn, unlike in 1.2.

First let me mention what I observed regarding game timing, which impacts the honor you will receive. There is a game clock which many events are tied to. Scripted events such as invasions; the management of cycles such as jousting; and monthly events such as receipt of taxes, application of the popularity factor, and the awarding of honor. We usually think of this as a monthly cycle, but of course it is broken down into much smaller time increments in the internal programming.

As far as I can tell the monthly honor bonus is awarded and shown rising from an object on the exact monthly anniversary of its placement. In other words if you place a statue on the 12th day of the month, the honor awarded will be applied on the 12th day of each month thereafter. Each object seems to maintain its own anniversary date.

If you place a gibbet on the 20th day of the month, any honor awarded for its use will be applied on the 20th of each month, regardless how often the device is used, or when a particular punishment commenced. In other words its honor clock is running from its placement date until it is deleted.

Punishments can commence at any time during the month. The punishment clock for a torture device starts running the moment the prisoner reaches the torture device and stops when the appropriate time has been reached for that particular device. The honor clock for that device has been running since its placement, therefore these two will not be in sync with each other. So when a prisoner is brought to a torture device and punishment commences, because there is both a punishment clock and an honor award clock running, and they do not start out in sync, the honor can be awarded at any point after the punishment begins, depending on where the honor clock was when the punishment commenced. It could be awarded 1 day or 29 days after the start, or anywhere in between, but it will continue to be awarded on the same day each month until the punishment ends.

I mention this because some tortures last for whole months and some include fractions of months. A torture lasting a whole number of months will always give the same amount of honor since every month during which it lasts will include all 30 days (based on a 30 day month), one of which will be the honor anniversary day. But the tortures that include fractions of months may or may not award the +1 of honor in the last month. For all but the executioner's block these include half months at the end. If the honor award comes in the first half of the month you'll get the extra honor, if in the last half, the torture will end on day 15 and you won't get it.

The executioner's block is a special case since it lasts only about 3 days. If you hit the cycle just right and the torture starts on one of those three days, you can get the +1 honor, but usually you won't. Theoretically it's a 10 to 1 shot (3 out of 30 days).

The times for the tortures remain the same as for 1.2 but the amount of honor you will receive is quite different since it's based strictly on time served: +1 honor for each month. Up to 20 points of honor for the stocks. Pretty good.

The following table shows the results. Note that times that include fractions of months may award the extra honor point or not as explained above. You get the amount of honor indicated for each torture device in use. Two stocks equals 40 honor.

Torture DeviceTime (in months)Honor
Stocks2020
Gibbet1515
Humiliation Mask12.512-13
Flogging Post3.53-4
Branding Chair33
Torture Wheel2.52-3
Stretching Rack22
Burning Post11
Gallows.50-1
Executioner's Block 3 days0-1


DoY's infamous TREASURE ISLAND - Challenge #13 - Sparrow's Extreme Challenges for SH1 and Crusader
Kester
Seraph Emeritus
posted 11-03-05 22:59 EST (US)     10 / 19       
Nice work, Sparrow

*off to update the honour page*


.--.- Kester -.--.
-.--.- deviations .--. flickr .--. gamertag -.--.-
.--.- if (Kester.says("Zen! Get online")) { zen.status("online") } -.--.
stryker_oz
Archer
posted 11-10-05 01:12 EST (US)     11 / 19       
So it's a balance between how long your prisoner is no longer producing apples/timber/whatever and the honour you earn while he's being punished.

Wouldn't you therefore tend towards the punishments that take the longest since you can always buy the commodity shortfall at the markets?

Sparrow
Archer
posted 11-10-05 01:39 EST (US)     12 / 19       
If you need the honor that would certainly be true. But there are many ways to earn lots of honor so more often than not you'd rather have the peasant back to work and keeping up production.

It's a question of the greater need. If you're in a scenario that doesn't allow many items that produce honor, or if it's early on and you have very little money to purchase one, a very slow and cheap to purchase device like the stocks might make a lot of sense, at least in the beginning.


DoY's infamous TREASURE ISLAND - Challenge #13 - Sparrow's Extreme Challenges for SH1 and Crusader
alpha Beta
Archer
posted 11-10-05 07:55 EST (US)     13 / 19       

Quoted from Sparrow:

I did notice on the test map I was using that criminals no longer seemed to go to a working inn to strap on their bag and begin to sneak toward the granary. They seemed to always return to the hovels, irregardless of the presence of the inn, unlike in 1.2.

I'm pretty sure I have seen criminals go to the Inn. It may have been the particular map, or other circumstances.

Quoted from Sparrow:

I mention this because some tortures last for whole months and some include fractions of months. A torture lasting a whole number of months will always give the same amount of honor since every month during which it lasts will include all 30 days (based on a 30 day month), one of which will be the honor anniversary day. But the tortures that include fractions of months may or may not award the +1 of honor in the last month. For all but the executioner's block these include half months at the end. If the honor award comes in the first half of the month you'll get the extra honor, if in the last half, the torture will end on day 15 and you won't get it.

I got a little lost in the wording here. You're saying that the honor bonus will only get awarded if the anniversary date happens to come up while the device is in use?

Sparrow
Archer
posted 11-10-05 13:46 EST (US)     14 / 19       
Regarding criminals ignoring the inn in 1.3.1. I've only observed it on one map so far. I still have to check it out in more detail.

I don't know if my wording is really that good. I'd be very interested to know if the above chart makes the concept clearer.


DoY's infamous TREASURE ISLAND - Challenge #13 - Sparrow's Extreme Challenges for SH1 and Crusader
stryker_oz
Archer
posted 11-12-05 20:59 EST (US)     15 / 19       
So would it be fair to say when you guys are generating sufficient honor from other means that you erase the stocks and other slower punishments and only have the burning stake and other capital punishments where the guy is killed and a replacement starts running his industry very shortly after?

Thanks for the discussion so far - has been very enlightening in my first week of playing sh2

Sparrow
Archer
posted 11-13-05 00:33 EST (US)     16 / 19       
If at all possible I usually go straight for an executioner's block. I normally have enough honor being accumulated through other means and I'd rather focus my attention on things other than crime.

DoY's infamous TREASURE ISLAND - Challenge #13 - Sparrow's Extreme Challenges for SH1 and Crusader
stryker_oz
Archer
posted 11-13-05 20:10 EST (US)     17 / 19       
Okay,

So clearly you build your courthouse and guard posts quite late on in the development of your castle (or you don't start as a freeman and have to work your way up so you have the executioner's option from the start).

How far apart do you place your Guard Posts - is there a rule of thumb for how far these guys patrol or can see the criminals?

Thanks again.

Sparrow
Archer
posted 11-13-05 21:18 EST (US)     18 / 19       
Well, actually I'm speaking from the perspective of the PoW, PoP, and custom scenarios where you often have the resources to get a crime system running early on. But no matter what the map type, it's best to get crime under control as soon as you can, and a cheap and slow punishment is fine to start. Plus if you choose one of the slower punishments, you won't need a torturer's guild. I would upgrade as soon as you can, though, so you can keep your production up.

Guard post placement is not that complicated when you understand the dynamics involved. The crime we're speaking of is theft from the granary. As far as I know that's always the case. A peasant that turns to crime first goes to a hovel and straps a small "booty bag" onto his belt and begins a "sneaky walk" to the granary. As soon as he does that the guards will recognize him as a criminal and will give chase. When they catch him they escort him to the dungeon for incarceration and further processing.

Many players like to put a guard post near the hovels. This puts a guard very close to where a peasant can first be spotted as a criminal. This can work well if all your hovels are in one area, but if they are scattered around, you would need extra guard posts. My preference is to put one at the granary, since no matter where a peasant is when he turns to crime, he will start heading to the granary--and the guard. This isn't quite as fast as having a guard right at the hovel, but isn't far off since the criminal and guard will be heading directly toward one another, and is a very safe solution.

So you can do quite well with one guard post if you wish, although very high crime rates or large distances may require more to keep up. If you choose to place one near the hovels, it's still a good idea to place one near the granary as back up. I don't believe there is any distance restriction on guards as there is for gong farmers and falconers.

Up to version 1.2 if you had a working inn, peasants would go there to start their crime, rather than a hovel, making a guard at the granary even more important. A test I did on 1.3.1 just recently seemed to indicate this may no longer be the case, but I need to do further testing to confirm this.


DoY's infamous TREASURE ISLAND - Challenge #13 - Sparrow's Extreme Challenges for SH1 and Crusader
stryker_oz
Archer
posted 11-15-05 00:03 EST (US)     19 / 19       
Thanks Sparrow. That's helped my understanding of this tremendously, and now I can place just one guard in the suburbs, and one at the granary I'll also free up some of my population limit for other duties.
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