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Stronghold 2 » Forums » Stronghold: Game Help & Strategy Discussions » Number Crunching
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Topic Subject:Number Crunching
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Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 11-24-01 15:33 EST (US)         
I've started doing some playing around with "number crunching" in Stronghold. I thought that maybe some other people might also be working on, or be interested in, this kind of thing and if so they could also post anything they find out, or are curious about, in this thread.

The first thing I have done is working out the speed at which the different people in the game travel. I will be putting that into the next post. Doing this has led me into starting work on production rates of farms and industries, hopefully I will have something to post about them before long.

This thread is getting so long that it has become a major task for people to find what has been discussed previously so below is a list of some of the main points covered, either as posts in this thread or as articles that have come from these posts. These only cover some of the main points or numbers, there are many interesting discussions not covered by them so anyone with the time would do well to read the whole thread.

Production cycles and walker speeds - Living by numbers article

Fear Factor details and effects - The Good, the Bad and the Mechanics article

Popularity and Taxing - Dr Popularity

Combat related hitpoints etc - Post 258. This post is a compendium of what has been discovered about combat strengths etc.

[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 05-29-2002 @ 00:11 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
derusett
Archer
posted 03-30-02 04:45 EST (US)     226 / 294       
thank you, thats good enough for me. I'll plan 1 month per cow

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. "
"Strength lies not in defense but in attack."
" you were born to be a chalk outline"

Sadbaton
Archer
posted 03-30-02 09:00 EST (US)     227 / 294       
swordsmen are the best unit, but are never used in mass since they take so long to get and are very slow. alot of people use mass pikemen and they use to be my backbone unit. I switched to macemen recently as there faster then pikemen and swordsmen and can be massed faster. They beat pikemen by far and take out mass xbows on land with ease. They will lose to swordsmen or knights in mass, but since they can easly out run swordsmen thats not a problem. I always have xbows as support units, so hitting swordsmen with mass xobws are never a problem and they can out run swordsmen also. People who make mass pikemen will incorperate swordsmen into the mix, but never as a main unit
Pumpkin
Archer
posted 04-02-02 04:48 EST (US)     228 / 294       
There is no obvious superiority of any unit in Stronghold, which shows that they have succeeded well in balancing the game. However, In large numbers, crossbows own the day. While 10 crossbows might not be better than 10 of any other kind of units, 100 crossbows are superior to any combination of 100 units of other kinds.

In my experience, swordmen are only useful in defence. For offense, it's worthwhile to make them into knights instead. It's fun to play with the crossbows against an enemy who attacks with masses of swordmen. I split the crossbows in two groups. One retreats/follows the swordmen while the other fires upon them, then vice versa. It might take a couple of minutes, then all swordmen are gone without their having touched the crossbows. Opportunity for this often occurs when the enemies attack has gone bad (his crossbows have been slaughtered) and he decides to retreat, only that swordmen cannot retreat from crossbows...

I don't agree that crossbows are particularly vulnerable to macemen. Of course, the crossbows should have a small number of macemen/swordmen/pikes as support, to delay some of the enemies within the crossbows range. 3 bolts kill a maceman, so with equal numbers, after three salvos all enemy macemen will be killed. The advantage of the crossbows is that they all fire all the time. The macemen must attack a group of crossbows one line at a time, leaving most macemen passive at any time.

If anything, crossbows are vulnerable to pikemen, for they are as quick as the crossbows and quite sturdy.

Adiperius
Archer
posted 04-02-02 20:18 EST (US)     229 / 294       
It's in my experience that Swordsmen are good for only light attack when time isn't of the essence. Otherwise, use crossbows or knights. Knights if you don't need to take to the walls and wotnot.

If you're feeling the need to dress men up in metal armor and scoot them out from behind the safety of your walls and towers, send out the pikes! Pikes do fair damage in groups; not to mention they're all around useful...good speed, fill in moats, and butcher crossbowmen.


Scribe: A large army of the..err..Wraith's men are coming this way, my liege?
Pikeman: Wraith?!
Jester: The apocalypse is upon us!
Mother: Save us m'lord!
Chickens: Cluck!
Sadbaton
Archer
posted 04-02-02 21:53 EST (US)     230 / 294       
Interesting that u mention useing xbows in mass.
Top german player named Von_panwitz and some others build 16 Fletcher buildlings and go soley mass xbows and i mean major mass. I have defeated him with mass pikemen and some xbows as support extremely bad and mass macemen with xbow support. trust me macemen whoop xbows badly unless the xbows are in towers protected then u need pikemen/swordsmen or just use siege units and your macemen. Im totally owning any player going mass xbows now with my macemen/xbow combo. i do not just sit there and attack the front line and move back as they go down. I run through the line breaking up any rythem they have and as i shown many times killing mass xbows and haveing alot of macemen left. Its not evan close and im talking xbows with more numbers also
Pumpkin
Archer
posted 04-03-02 04:44 EST (US)     231 / 294       
You mean, you keep on clicking on the a crossbowman far back in the formation during the macemen attack? Yes, I know, that really makes them run over everything. I think that's a big bug! Why should soldiers be much stronger (at least faster during battle) only because you keep on clicking? But, anyway, it's there and so xbows need protection, by moats or foot soldiers or something.

And yes, I've noticed some (German?) players use crossbows alot too, as I do nowadays. So I really hate those pikemen who won't let themselves get massacred by the bolts! It's interesting with this game, that for every (extreme) strategy, there is an effective response. Pikemen would hardly be used at all, I think, if there where no crossbows. Soon I probably will have developed another strategy, not using crossbows so heavily. I've given up on "discovering the perfect strategy" in this game. It all depends... But for now, I do think xbows rule big time. And 16 fletchers is quite few! I fill the map with'em and always use full bad bonus to make them DO something. Those crossbows take so long to make and I can never get enough!
Lets see, 170 crossbows should kill 10 pikemen per salvo, that should help...

[This message has been edited by Pumpkin (edited 04-03-2002 @ 04:51 AM).]

Wraith
Archer
posted 04-03-02 08:46 EST (US)     232 / 294       
Its quite interesting I think. But on the note of having people run to the back, just think of it like your telling them not to attack anyone in the mob but them. It doesnt matter if they pull out their dirks and try to attack you, just run to the guy in the back.

Also, I've done some research on the "battlefield" and It was posted I think in advanced military strategy:
When attacked by masses of xbows, counter with knights, pikemen will sustain well over 60% losses. *this was based on a 200 xbow army, attacking with 50 pikes/knights*

I was really amaized at the amount of loss the pikes took against the xbows. I think the idea is that they get slaughtered enroute, and not while attacking. The knights only take hits when the are standing there taking heads.

Also, if attacked by archers pikemen will take few losses like the knights do.

I dont remember the #s off hand, but Im sure they are in the Advanced strat.

I've been playing quite a bit of Shogun total war, and I have noticed the similartiy there. In fact, it states to counter missle units with knights. *"Heavy calvery"*

Needless to say countering archers with knights has even less causualties.


Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
Brave Sir Robin
Archer
posted 04-05-02 00:43 EST (US)     233 / 294       
Re: post #223, Wraith, I've got it if you want it

Brave Sir Robin
Expert combiner of official Stronghold art.
Knavish Knave of Knavery, The Tragedie of BSR.
Scenario Designer and Member of Tsunami Studios.
Head of The Tsuniversity

derusett
Archer
posted 04-19-02 13:09 EST (US)     234 / 294       
HOW ON EARTH did you post that table a while ago mere??

I just made a table for unit statistics and went to post it and couldn't because HTML is off


"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. "
"Strength lies not in defense but in attack."
" you were born to be a chalk outline"

Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 04-19-02 13:23 EST (US)     235 / 294       
Magic derusset If you want to send the table to me I can post it for you.
derusett
Archer
posted 04-19-02 13:25 EST (US)     236 / 294       
naa I'll just leave the post the way it is instead of summerizing it in tabel form

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. "
"Strength lies not in defense but in attack."
" you were born to be a chalk outline"

The Ztolk
Archer
(id: Ztolk)
posted 04-24-02 17:38 EST (US)     237 / 294       
Trebs vs Gates/Towers stone attrition:

Gate: 120 HP for 1 stone
Treb: 240 damage for .5 stone

For every unit of stone a treb hits a gate with, it costs 4 stone to repair.


This means that reloading trebs is more stone efficient than repairing damaged gates and walls. However, this does not take accuracy into account.

Catapaults do 160 damage for 1 stone
For 3 stone from a cat, that is 4 to repair

Not nearly as efficient as trebs, but still better than gates. This also does not take accuracy into account.

[This message has been edited by The Ztolk (edited 04-24-2002 @ 05:42 PM).]

The Ztolk
Archer
(id: Ztolk)
posted 05-04-02 14:07 EST (US)     238 / 294       
I've found that trebs and cats do 137% damage when on high elevation.
KT_Gandalf
Archer
posted 05-19-02 11:19 EST (US)     239 / 294       
I haven't read all the replies so i don't know if anyone already put this.Anyway:

How many arrows to kill a unit:

Unit Archer/Crossbowman/Ballistae
Spearman 3 1 1
Archer 5 1 1
Maceman 15 3 2
Crossbowman 10 3 2
Swordman 200 12 3
Knight 135 8 2
Pikeman 50 17 5
Engineer 1 1 1
Ladderman 2 1 1
Tunneler 2 1 1
Portable Shield 160 54 8

Wraith
Archer
posted 05-19-02 13:55 EST (US)     240 / 294       
WooT! Balista info!
Thanks for counting

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
b_heald
Archer
posted 05-25-02 22:46 EST (US)     241 / 294       
Does anyone know what trees grow the fastest and which ones make the most wood? I think myself that oak or chestnut make the most but grow the slowest and brich grow the fastest but are used up the fastest. Pine trees are in the middle for every thing
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-26-02 00:47 EST (US)     242 / 294       
Oak produces the most, spruce the least. I didnt know there was a differnt grow rate. I like to put Oak and Pine in most of my maps. I find trying to find resources isnt all that much fun.

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 05-26-02 01:50 EST (US)     243 / 294       
This is what I posted about trees way back at the start of this thread

There are 4 types of trees in the game, Pine, Oak, Chestnut and Birch. Mature Pine, Oak and Chestnut trees all provide 3 loads of wood, ie 9 logs which is 36 planks. Birch trees only provide 2/3 of a load, ie 2 logs which is 8 planks. The stump is removed from the ground when the last log is taken.

Once a tree is cut down it does not regrow. Forest growth is achieved by mature trees seeding. Every one or two years a new baby tree will appear a short distance away from the mature tree. It will then grow to maturity in 3 stages for Pine, Oak and Chestnut, taking approximately 3 to 4 years. Birche trees grow to maturity in approx 1 to 2 years and only have one immature stage which provides 1 log, 4 planks of wood. Immature Pine, Oak and Chestnut trees provide 1 log, 4 planks in their first stage, 2 logs, 8 planks in their 2nd and 4 logs, 16 planks in their 3rd stage.

Trees also occasionally die, they lose their leaves and are ignored by the woodcutters. Approximately 2 years later they disappear. This appears to be a random event, unconnected to the trees age, though I have only seen mature trees die.

Some tests I did seemed to show that Birch trees reproduce quickest, followed by Pine then Chestnut then Oak, but this is really not conclusive. The quicker maturing time for Birches though does definitely allow them to spread quicker than the other trees, but their lower wood yield makes them much less attractive for woodcutting.

Since then I've tried some more tests and my feeling is there is no difference between reproduction time for Pine, Oaks and Chestnuts. The randomness that is part of tree spawning makes it very hard to say anything about that with any certainty.


[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 05-26-2002 @ 01:57 AM).]

Bravo6
Archer
posted 05-26-02 10:30 EST (US)     244 / 294       
On another thread I am asking about the effectiveness of Apothecaries. The responses, though from respected sources, are anecdotal rather than statistical.

I would imagine a test wouldn't include a standard village with various activities since the timing etc. is random. I think if one were to record how long the cloud lasts with one healer as compared to two, three or more that would answer one issue. One would also have to determine how long the cloud lasts when the healer isn't in the cloud but elsewhere on the map.

Has anyone attempted this or similar tests?


Bravo6
There I was, between a rock and a hard place when I thought - What am I doing on this side of the rock?
Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 05-26-02 11:21 EST (US)     245 / 294       
I did do a bit of testing on this for my Dr Popularity article for the Strategy section.

Because of the random nature of the apothecaries walks it isn't possible to give exact numbers, ie x apothecaries will stop plague in a city with x people in x months. I am though positive that having more than 1 apothecary in larger cities does reduce plague, and lowers the negative popularity effect from it, quicker. If they do not walk through the "plagued area" then they don't have an effect, therefore placing apothecaries reasonably close to the keep (all plagues seem to appear in the general area around the keep) is necessary if they are to have an effect.

[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 05-26-2002 @ 11:24 AM).]

Bravo6
Archer
posted 05-26-02 11:48 EST (US)     246 / 294       
Thank you for the reply. I also have heard that placing gardens near the apothecary shop keep then in the general area, limiting their roaming looking for herbs. Is this on track or merely myth?

Bravo6
There I was, between a rock and a hard place when I thought - What am I doing on this side of the rock?
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-26-02 16:55 EST (US)     247 / 294       
Mere: The plague hits in 2 places: The fireplace and the stockpile

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 05-26-02 17:44 EST (US)     248 / 294       
I would say that the garden thing is merely myth from my observations, but I've never heard it before or seriously checked. I really doubt that the AI for the apothecary knows what a garden is.
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-26-02 18:01 EST (US)     249 / 294       
I doubt the AI knows what anything is!

*cant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:Ccant wait for SH:C*


Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
The Ztolk
Archer
(id: Ztolk)
posted 05-26-02 19:40 EST (US)     250 / 294       
I'm not sure if anyone knows this, but it takes 3 pits to kill a lord.

Any comment on my treb data posts?

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