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Stronghold 2 » Forums » Stronghold: Game Help & Strategy Discussions » Number Crunching
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Topic Subject:Number Crunching
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Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 11-24-01 15:33 EST (US)         
I've started doing some playing around with "number crunching" in Stronghold. I thought that maybe some other people might also be working on, or be interested in, this kind of thing and if so they could also post anything they find out, or are curious about, in this thread.

The first thing I have done is working out the speed at which the different people in the game travel. I will be putting that into the next post. Doing this has led me into starting work on production rates of farms and industries, hopefully I will have something to post about them before long.

This thread is getting so long that it has become a major task for people to find what has been discussed previously so below is a list of some of the main points covered, either as posts in this thread or as articles that have come from these posts. These only cover some of the main points or numbers, there are many interesting discussions not covered by them so anyone with the time would do well to read the whole thread.

Production cycles and walker speeds - Living by numbers article

Fear Factor details and effects - The Good, the Bad and the Mechanics article

Popularity and Taxing - Dr Popularity

Combat related hitpoints etc - Post 258. This post is a compendium of what has been discovered about combat strengths etc.

[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 05-29-2002 @ 00:11 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-26-02 21:55 EST (US)     251 / 294       
Yes, you forgot to include in the fact that not every stone hits its target. Btw: where you been? Your not on ICQ?

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-26-02 22:00 EST (US)     252 / 294       
I suppose, btw, that all this needs reinteration:

Quoted from Wraith on post 177/251:

Interesting fact: It takes 3 killing pits to kill a lord.

Quoted from Wraith on post 157/251:


COMPLETELY off topic but! More #s:
Killing pits required to kill a unit
Spearman 1
Macemen 1
Archer 1
Crossbow 1
Blackmonk 1
Engineer 1
Latterman 1
Tunneler 1
Knight 2
Swordsmen 2
Pikemen 3
Catipult 1
Ram 9
Siege Tower 14

Im thinking of documenting this info. Mere, do you mind if I do that and add it to the original topic?


Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
b_heald
Archer
posted 05-26-02 22:40 EST (US)     253 / 294       
Thanks for answeing my question. But now i have another one, iz there a way to make the AI not be so stupid? Like when they attack the just all rush at u at once. can i actully have a challenge?
The Ztolk
Archer
(id: Ztolk)
posted 05-26-02 23:02 EST (US)     254 / 294       
My ICQ computer is offline. I have MSN, though.
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-27-02 00:35 EST (US)     255 / 294       
B_heald, YES! You can make the AI act a little more agressive. As far as I know, you can only really do it in sieges. When you are building your castle, leave a gap in the wall. It sounds crazy, but its works. If you want an example, download my Gladiator 2 map, under sieges. Its a prime example. If you have a slow comp *under 330 mhz* I suggest only playing it on hard. It tends to lag. Hope that helps.

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
blacksheep1
Archer
posted 05-28-02 14:34 EST (US)     256 / 294       
Just did some more number crunching on the number of peasants you can have around your campfire at one time. What I came up with is 24 peasants at once. I don't remember where I read it but someone was asking about this somewhere, so here is the info.

Keep Smiling......It Makes Everyone Wonder What You've Been Doing!!!!
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-28-02 15:00 EST (US)     257 / 294       
BLACKSHEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Missed you!!!! WB!
Not true: You can have 100s around the fire, depends on how you go about it. Say you put up *ridiculously* 400 woodcutters, then zzzz them, all the peasants *400* will start walking back. Initially, yes, only 24 spawn out.

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
Merepatra
HG Alumnus
posted 05-28-02 23:49 EST (US)     258 / 294       
To try and make it easier for people to find information from this thread I've put together this post which has excerpts from the posts which give combat related numbers. One day hopefully this will all end up in a couple of tables.

Originally posted by Durikkan on 12-08-2001 12:48 PM
Thing:Arrows to Kill:Bolts to Kill:
Archer51
Spearman31
Crossbowman103
Maceman153
Pikeman 5017
Swordsman200 (!!!)12
Knight1358
Ram10038
Catapult 6514
Port. Shield16054


The damage bonus is plainly added as a percentage to damage (as expected)
A maceman will die from 12 arrows from a player with 25% good bonus (1/1.25 * 15 = 12)
A macemen will die from 20 arrows from a player with 25% bad penalty (1/.75 * 15 = 20)

Originally posted by The Ztolk on 12-29-2001 02:29 PM
Damage to towers/gates by various units, arranged from least to most damage.
Note: Damage is same to both wood and stone structures
Archer-0 (arrow deflected)
X-Bow-0 (")
Ballista-0 (bolt flies right through. A bug)
Spearman-3
Monk-3
Pikeman-4
Maceman-4
Tunneler-4
Mangonel-5/Stone
Long Swordsman-6
Knight-6
Lord-6
Ram-50
Catapault-80
Trebuchet-240

Originally posted by Wraith on 02-05-2002 00:47 AM
Spearmen Vs
--------
Archers 11
Crossbow 10
Spearmen 11
Pikemen 50-52
Macemen 16
Swordsmen 31
Knights 19
Tunnerlers 11
Lattermen 1-2
Engineers 6
Monks 15
Pikemen
-------
Archers 8
Crossbow 12
Spearmen 8
Pikemen 38-40
Macemen 12
Swordsmen 23-25
Knights 15
Tunnerlers 8
Lattermen 1-2
Engineers 5
Monks 12
Macemen
-------
Archers 4
Crossbow 5
Spearmen 4
Pikemen 18
Macemen 6
Swordsmen 30
Knights 20
Tunnerlers 3
Lattermen 2
Engineers 3
Monks 6
Swordsmen
---------
Archers 2
Crossbow 4
Spearmen 3
Pikemen 12
Macemen 4
Swordsmen 11
Knights 15
Tunnerlers 3
Lattermen 1
Engineers 2
Monks 3
Knights
-------
Archers 4
Crossbow 6
Spearmen 4
Pikemen 18
Macemen 5
Swordsmen 17
Knights 11
Tunnerlers 4
Lattermen 1
Engineers 2
Monks 6
TUNNELERS!!!!!
--------------
Archers 9
Crossbow 13
Spearmen 9
Pikemen 42
Macemen 14
Swordsmen 25
Knights 20
Tunnerlers 9
Lattermen 5
Engineers 5
Monks 13
Monks
-----
Archers 6
Crossbow 5
Spearmen 6
Pikemen 24
Macemen 8
Swordsmen 18
Knights 11
Tunnerlers 6
Lattermen 3
Engineers 3
Monks 8

Originally posted by Wraith on 02-05-2002 04:36 PM
Units Vs attacking Siege Weapons
Archer
------
Rams 100
Catapult 70
Trebuchet 120
Crossbow
--------
Rams38
Catapult 14
Trebuchet 20
Spearmen
--------
Rams 170
Catapult 11
Trebuchet 43
Pikemen
-------
Rams 115
Catapult 7
Trebuchet 18
Macemen
-------
Rams 60
Catapult 4
Trebuchet 18
Swordsmen
---------
Rams 35
Catapult 3
Trebuchet 7
Knights
-------
Rams 52
Catapult 4
Trebuchet 11
Tunnelers(my happy boys!)
---------
Rams 125
Catapult 8
Trebuchet 10
Monks
-----
Rams 66
Catapult 6
Trebuchet 7
Also, I noted that archers standing on a wall do +10 to range. I also noted that archers with a brazier, do not inflict any additional damage

Originally posted by Wraith on 02-07-2002 02:50 AM
Thanks to Brave Sir Robin, we have deterimened that:
Balista
-------
Ram 8
Trebuchet 3
Catapult 4

Mangonel
--------
Trebuchet 2
Catapult 2
Ram -I dont have the patiance to sit around ALL night and watch that puppy misfire!

Originally posted by The Ztolk on 02-07-2002 06:47 PM
Hit points/tile for defense structures:
Round Tower: 55.55 hp/t
Square Tower: 44.44 hp/t
Defense Turret: 48 hp/t
Perimeter Turret: 62.5 hp/t
Wooden Platform: 22.22 hp/t
Large Stone Gate: 40.816 hp/t
Small Stone Gate: 40 hp/t
Wooden Gate: 6.06 hp/t
Stone Wall: 60 hp/t
Wooden Wall: 108 hp/t
Crennelated Wall: 72 hp/t

Originally posted by Wraith on 02-25-2002 10:39 AM
Killing pits required to kill a unit
Spearman 1
Macemen 1
Archer 1
Crossbow 1
Blackmonk 1
Engineer 1
Latterman 1
Tunneler 1
Knight 2
Swordsmen 2
Pikemen 3
Catipult 1
Ram 9
Siege Tower 14

Originally posted by foulgrin on 03-18-2002 06:59 PM
Combining all the posts for damage between units, and fudging the numbers slightly to make the trends work, I get something like this:
Unit/HP
Archer/10
Spearmen/10
Crossbow/15
Maceman/15
Pikemem/50
Swordman/30
Knight/20
There is a 4x bonus for defender wearing armor vs arrow and xbow, 2x bonus for leather, [but on top of this sword and night get a whopping 10X bonus vs arrow - probably there is another variable "hit probability" which is apparently 10% for Sword/Knight vs Arrow - so you need 10x the number of arrows so 10% "hit", then you still get the armor bonus to your HP...]
Weapon/damage
Arrow/3
Bolt/10
Spear/1
Pike/1.25
Mace/2.5
Sword/5
Mounted Sword/2.5
Again these hold up well except for against Sword/Knight, where the "hit probability" for Mace vs Sword and mounted Sword is about 50%, for Sword vs Sword 50% and Sword vs Mounted Sword 25%.
Generally speaking though, looking at all the other posts and tweaking the "hits to kill with" numbers one or two up or down, these numbers hold up well.
Notice the high HP for pikemen... so that's why they need 3 kill pits to die, it seems they have the highest HP value.

Originally posted by Wraith on 03-20-2002 05:15 PM
Kill yer lord!
Unit >hits to kill lord
Maceman - 3
Spearman - 8
Pikeman - 3
Monk - 4
Knight - 3
Swordsman - 2
Tunneler 6

Sir Deacon
Archer
posted 05-29-02 00:45 EST (US)     259 / 294       
Wow Mere, what a great job! Now thats alot of work...

There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.
Wraith
Archer
posted 05-29-02 00:52 EST (US)     260 / 294       
YAY MERE!
good work to everyone one who contributed.

Guard your walls, I am coming.
My Recommendations
gowestover
Archer
posted 06-04-03 16:32 EST (US)     261 / 294       
Hey,

I have an economics\numbers question:

Has anyone figured out the optimum ratio of Wheat Fields to Mills to Bakeries? or Hops Farms to Breweries?

What I mean is, how many Mills should be built per Wheat Field, and how many Bakeries per Mill?


Regards,

Gordon L. Allen

brave sir robyn
Archer
posted 06-05-03 04:46 EST (US)     262 / 294       
Welcome govestower,

If placed in reasonable proximity to the stockpile and granary, then three wheat farms, one mill and eight bakeries should be about right.

Of course, it all depends how far your peasants have to walk with their goods. The shorter the walking distance for any peasant the faster they will produce.

The Ztolk
Archer
(id: Ztolk)
posted 11-17-03 21:40 EST (US)     263 / 294       
Wood, Stone, Iron-48 per stockpile quadrant
Pitch, Hops, Ale-16
Wheat, Flour-32
Lord Hornburg
Archer
posted 12-16-03 01:56 EST (US)     264 / 294       
you've done alot of work there well done!!!!
NeKoeNMa
Archer
posted 12-16-03 15:30 EST (US)     265 / 294       
Recently I noticed that units atop of walls can sustain more arrows than those on the ground. For example, Spearman can sustain 3 archer arrows when on ground, on walls he can sustain 9 arrows. Pikeman on ground 50 and on walls 150, so on walls the damages is decreased 3 times! Look what I got until now:

Archer arrows to kill while the unit is on the walls:

Spearman 9
Maceman 46
Engineer 1
Engineer w. Oil 7
Pikeman 150
Monk 3
Tuneller 6

I'll se if units on an altitude higher than the walls deal equal or more damage to those on the walls lower than the ground they're at.

NeKoeNMa
Archer
posted 12-16-03 16:24 EST (US)     266 / 294       
*continuation*

If the unit is on a higher altitude, be it on the ground, on a wall or on a tower, it will take less damage (defense increases 3 times). So, if an unit is on High plain and fires at someone on a wall on min plain the damage will be normal. If the unit on the wall fired at the one on the high plain the defense would get a bonus.

An if we're talking about height, we should consider some things: From lower to higher:

Min height
Low plain
Wall
Perimeter Tower
High Plain
Defense tower
Square Tower = Round tower
Max Height
Himalaia (trick)

So, if you want to have the highest spot for your archers to fire, it's the square (round) tower on max height (you can't build anything on Himalaia).

I got surprised with the engineers when talking about this:

Engineer (lower) 1 arrow to kill
Engineer (higher) 2 arrows to kill
Engineer w. oil (lower) 1 arrow to kill
Engineer w. oil (higher) 9 arrows to kill

That means that engineers wih oil on the tthe higher altitude have extra defense, when other egineer, enven with oil on lower would have been killed on the first shot. Interesting...

Ash Plissken
Archer
posted 12-21-03 16:35 EST (US)     267 / 294       
brave sir robyn:

I'm sure you know this, but it's worth pointing out that the Mill is an exception to the "shorter distance to stockpile = faster production" rule. Since it has more than one person working in it, if you put it too close, the other workers will get back to it with a fresh unit of wheat before the worker inside finishes grinding his. That means he wastes time waiting around outside the Mill.

The "ideal" distance is when the time it takes to get to or from the stockpile exactly equals the time it takes to grind a unit of wheat into flour. That way, the wheat gets to the Mill just as the flour is leaving, and the third guy is dropping off his flour and heading back with his wheat just as they switch off.

I usually like to place my mills just a little farther than this ideal distance (which will vary anyway, since some stockpile squares are farther away than others). I'd rather have the Mill be idle for a few seconds and make sure that my millboys are always on the move.

Zygoman
Archer
posted 01-24-04 10:45 EST (US)     268 / 294       
Maybe the designers wanted to do so. I mean, an arrow will lose its speed and thus, its hitting force. It penetrates less meat and does less damege. What do you think?
Bismuth
Archer
posted 03-04-04 20:38 EST (US)     269 / 294       
NeKoeNMa - I've got to ask - what is the "Himalaia" trick?

No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength.
A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save.
But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love.
++33rd Psalm, Verses 16-18++
NeKoeNMa
Archer
posted 03-09-04 10:35 EST (US)     270 / 294       
Himalaia trick?

You build a wall on Max Height. Put a boulder on the wall just like making walls smaller. As the terrain also increases, the mountain get higher. If you want to build something on the new mountain, it won't be possible. Buildings won't be allowed and walls will shrink to the ground size, so it's only a trick to be used on eye-candy maps.

I forgot to mention the gatehouses. It looks like the smaller gatehouse gets under the perimeter tower and the large gatehouse too.

Bismuth
Archer
posted 03-19-04 14:39 EST (US)     271 / 294       
Thanks for explaining this trick. I'm going to try this and see what it looks like.

No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength.
A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save.
But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love.
++33rd Psalm, Verses 16-18++
NAT
Banned
posted 03-20-04 04:44 EST (US)     272 / 294       
You can see it in Lord Ako's new map - Ice Age. It is used to make a glacier
NeKoeNMa
Archer
posted 03-20-04 17:27 EST (US)     273 / 294       
Was it? I thought it was just max height. I wouldn't bother making so much of this trick. Anyways, when I do it the side cliff is very weird and there's no big utility at all for this trick, so i never used it. Just mentioned.

(I wonder why I included it on the height. You can't take archers on the top of it anyway since if you try to level or lower the terrain it goes back to max height...)

Zebas
Archer
posted 12-17-04 16:03 EST (US)     274 / 294       
Steps down from the shrunken walls?
Broken Clock2
Banned
posted 05-12-05 21:39 EST (US)     275 / 294       
Edited by Merepatra

[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 05-12-2005 @ 10:26 PM).]

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