Bradius, up to mission 16 currently, and I've yet to see a well or a fire (other than those started by pitch).

Heh, I had to register, just so I could save you guys some time...

The combat bonus/penalty from Good things/Bad things is just a direct modifer to damage of the unit (rate of fire, and defense do not change). So, an archer with level 5 good things (represented by 5 green dots under his health bar (red dots = mod from bad things)) does 25% more damage than usual... But it still takes him exactly 3 arrows to kill a spearman, so its not too incredibly useful in the early missions, but now that I know this, I realize it is a good idea to build a lot of good things at the begining of (or during) the final battle of a mission.

At least, All of that is as far as I can tell, I'm pretty sure I'm right, but this is only from a single test.

I don't think bad things give an extra load every once in a while, i think its spread out so they give a slightly increased value every time, because I saw an 8 stone oxen drop off 12, (150%)

I hope this helps ya.

Thanks, Durikkan.

:: wonders if siege engines get a combat bonus too... ::

No, I didn't change the spelling on Durikkan's name

[This message has been edited by Jayhawk (edited 12-07-2001 @ 04:42 PM).]

Thanks Durikan and welcome to Stronghold Heaven, hope we see more of you here

I never tested the extra loads for bad things with ox tethers so it seems they work slightly differently than the other industries. Guess 16 stone was just too many for the ox to carry . I presume that it works out as the same percentage extra overall though.

[This message has been edited by Merepatra (edited 12-07-2001 @ 05:29 AM).]

I think it probably works for siege engines (they have the little dots that show they are getting a bonus).. But even the portable shields have the dot, and they can't attack, so I don't know.

As far as I could tell, all of the industries just give +% at the dropoff for every drop-off, (I may be hideously wrong). Like every single time, the woodcutters would be dropping off more than usual. Course, this was all in one game... I could've observed incorrectly, or the game could've been different.. I don't know.

And, just so ya know, both of you guys spelled my name wrong, but ah well, it doesn't matter that much.

Edit--- psh, I mispelled dot on accident, another reason i can't blame others for mispellings.

[This message has been edited by Durikkan (edited 12-07-2001 @ 04:33 PM).]

IFixed. I hate it when I do that...

[This message has been edited by Jayhawk (edited 12-08-2001 @ 07:46 AM).]

I really like it how everyone makes an effort to have good grammar and spelling here, even those who aren't native speakers

This post is kind of long and rambles for a while, but it clears up the subject of "Bad things"

Okay, I did some more testing and this is how it works.

They will give their efficency bonus every single drop off they make. So with Full efficency the Wheat farmers will drop off 3 things of wheat every single time, instead of 2, and the bakers will drop off 12 loaves of bread, instead of 8, and the woodcutters will drop of 18, instead of 12.

However, Merepatra was on the right track dealing with small loads. Take pitch workers, for example, they will drop off 1 load of pitch on their first run, even at 150% efficency (that's 1.5 loads). Then, on their second load, instead of dropping off 1 more, they'll drop of 2, Making a total of 3 pitch in 2 runs (150% of normal). The proportions are adjusted directly by the efficency (for almost every single type of commodity... Some don't increase, like I don't think Mill-boys do, but it is alright, because you're already getting 225% of the normal amount of bread from wheat. (as shown below)

Normal : 2 wheat -> 2 flour --> 16 bread
150 % : 3 wheat -> 3 flour --> 36 bread

The game appears to keep track of fractional goods produced, and will make them up as soon as you get enough fractions to make a whole number (i.e 5 +20% runs will yield a bonus load)

So, except for the combat penalty, being mean is the best route to go, because you can step up rations to 1.5x (since you're already getting 1.5x the food, 2.25x if you're making bread), which cancels out 4 of the 5 penalty points for being maximally mean, and surely 1 point of popularity loss is worth all other industries producing much faster.

But.. to cancel out the Combat penalty, weapons are produced according to this, too. So with 2 drop-offs at 150% efficency, 3 weapons are produced..

Approaching it mathmatically, the extra weapons cancel out the negative penalty

2 troops at 100% damage each --> 200% damage of 1 standard troop

3 troops at 75% damage each --> 225% damage of 1 standard troop

So you get slightly more damage dealt, with the ability to absorb slightly more, too (because 3 units have more health than 2)

Edit - added the weapons section

[This message has been edited by Durikkan (edited 12-07-2001 @ 08:35 PM).]

Great work Durikkan

So wheat farms are even better than we thought, eh? With *225%* efficiency, you'd be silly not to use them if you can.

About troops being more cost effective, you must take gold cost into account. You would still be paying 50% extra gold...so it might not be too effective...

Thanks for this Durikkan spelt it right this time, glad to see somebody else fiddling with this stuff. Now what I would like to see are some definitive tables on troops hit points etc .

Sir Robin, I think even with the gold cost for troops added in that bad things could still often be the way to go. Particularly if you can sell any other goods that are being produced at the higher rate. The extra food production makes it fairly easy to negate the loss in popularity points too. I hadn't thought about the "double whammy" effect it would have on bread production.

Time for a test, methinks

I remember discussions during beta whether an 'evil' lord or a 'good' lord should give bonusses to his troops. The question was would they fight harder out of fear or out of loyalty.
Seems loyalty has won.

Yeah, because if they made troops fight harder out of fear, then then being mean would be the best way to play the game, every single time, almost without question

Fires, eh? I had one of those in the military campaign.. though it was my fault. First mission you get boiling oil, I poured it on a pikeman, right as he made a whole in the wall, there was a building right inside, the fire spread through the hole, caught the building on fire.. it quickly spread and my entire castle (15-20 buildings) was on fire.. Since there are no wells in that mission, I had to delete all the buildings and place them again... but I still won that mission.

Anyway, on to the point of this post.. I did basic level combat testing of ranged units (archers and crossbowmen).. (I didn't test melee units because that takes a lot longer, and its harder to test some things (like spearman damage against swordsman)

(No bonuses or penalties)

Thing:	Arrows to Kill:	Bolts to Kill:
Archer	5	1
Spearman	3	1
Crossbowman	10	3
Maceman	15	3
Pikeman	50	17
Swordsman	200 (!!!)	12
Knight	135	8
Ram	100	38
Catapult	65	14
Port. Shield	160	54

Sorry about all the dashes, but since this thing gets rid of all the extra spaces, that was all I could do to maintain proper spacing for the chart..

You see why portable shields are valuable for defense, as they are much tougher than anything else (vs long range, at least)

That would take a really long time to kill swordsmen with arrows alone. The swordsmen take, by far, the most arrows to kill, but the pikeman can take more crossbow bolts... So use more pikemen if the enemy has lots of crossbowmen.

The damage bonus is plainly added as a percentage to damage (as expected)

A maceman will die from 12 arrows from a player with 25% good bonus (1/1.25 * 15 = 12)

A macemen will die from 20 arrows from a player with 25% bad penalty (1/.75 * 15 = 20)

I'm fairly confident in the accuracy of this test.

[edit]Put data into table

[This message has been edited by Jayhawk (edited 12-10-2001 @ 03:50 AM).]

Thanks once more Durikkan. I find it interesting that it isn't a straight conversion of so many arrows does the same damage as so many bolts, but that the damage effect is different against different units.

Durikkan, thanks for your useful information and interesting discussion on the possible advantages of playing a bad lord over a good lord. However, you also have to take into account that when being a bad lord, you get some serious hits to your popularity. I have found it real hard while being a bad lord keeping my popularity above 50%, feeding my people enough to keep them reasonably happy, etc. If it wasn't for the hits to popularity, I might be more inclined to be a bit more evil.

I can't wait to see some more goodies

Bradius, if you are a bad lord your food production will be 50% greater, even more with bread. Since feeding your people extra rations of 50% puts your popularity up by 4 points most of the reduction in popularity points can be made up without too much trouble I feel. Or maybe I just like being mean

Durikkan, thanks for doing the works, I was dreading it...
I also put your numbers into a little table.

Wow, what a lot of useful info

Thanks, Mere for all your hard work. And Durikkan

Bradius is just a nice guy. Remember how he didnt want to kill off the old people in Pharaoh In the Economic campaign, that Emerging City map where you have to have 300 population and a Pleasant factor of 5, I went overboard decorating with gardens and Nice Things. Geez.. I think they did wander around smelling the flowers for years.

Might try being a bit cruel on the next map

Damage to towers/gates by various units, arranged from least to most damage.
Note: Damage is same to both wood and stone structures

Archer-0 (arrow deflected)
X-Bow-0 (")
Ballista-0 (bolt flies right through. A bug)
Spearman-3
Monk-3
Pikeman-4
Maceman-4
Tunneler-4
Mangonel-5/Stone
Long Swordsman-6
Knight-6
Lord-6
Ram-50
Catapault-80
Trebuchet-240

[This message has been edited by The Ztolk (edited 12-29-2001 @ 03:41 PM).]

Thanks Ztolk , thats good stuff to know.

hmn playing the game online at gamespy against good players any of u would of found this all out by yourselfs. I have never seen this post before and yet by playing now 410 wins 6 losses adn 2 ties i figured everything u said here out from all those games Im so far ahead of other players in skill that i now have to train alot of friends so they evan stand a chance and i am not exaggerateing.
My lay out is perfect for my food production. granary around 6 specs from keep so i can have it totally surrounded by apple orchards. I make 5-7 stock pikes in 1 straight line with all my weapon buildings 1 spec from it with armory right in the middle on 1 side. i make lines of 2 by 2 of each weapon building with 1 space for easy walking.
If the player is not rushing me or im not rushing i make bad things to increase work production. I have only noticed them speed up faster nothing else. when im about to attack i delete the bad things and make good things i get a nice attack bonus to attack now, so i just got the best of both worlds
apple orchards are the best food source period. i can tax at 8 right away and double ration right away wihtout a problem. 0 gold, low resources, no troops, troops cost gold, no weapons trading.
I am glad u guys did all these number crunches, but sometimes playing the game(against good players) helps out more then numbers.

So why don't you share with us the damage done by the non-missle troops to other troops?

How many hits does a spearman need to kill a swordsmen, how many swordsmen hits can a knight take?

Do us a favour?

Here's an interesting observation: a stone wall has 60 HP, while a wooden wall has 108. Therefore wood walls are stronger than stone walls.

That is interesting stuff Ztolk. I had always liked the effect of strengthing a wall with an extra layer of wood for some strange reason. It seemed to hold up rather well, but I just didn't know it did that good of a job. I guess that lumber is good for other stuff besides building bakeries.

Weird...